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simply swingin
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![[*]](./images/corporate/default_icon.gif) posted on 4/22/04 at 20:10 |
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Maynard Ferguson Died?
No, he didn't really I just needed someone to help quick. Anyways, My two top front teeth are sorta off center, and my dentist says I don't need
braces at all, and probably never will, but when I play I have to keep the mouthpiece a little to the left of the center if my lips, but it feels
perfectly fine. My tone is great, my range is great, it's comfortable... But it's unsually hard to firm both corners of my mouth. While one is nice
and firm, the other is only sorta firm. Even if every is going smooth and perfect do you think there'll be any problem? The only problem I see is it
leaves a very faint mark on the right side of my top lip. But I donno if this is bad or not. Any help?
And there I'll bow in humble adoration and there proclaim "My God how great You are!"
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Phantom9988
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| posted on 4/22/04 at 20:41 |
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simply swingin' youre a genious at getting attention. i dont think that you'll have any lasting problems. try to play in the center of your mouth
anyways--at least thats what i'd say. you see, having constant pressure there will, over time, straighten out your teeth. i had a massive overbite
when i started playing the trumpet--the dentist said i'd need a heck of expensive set of braces to fix it but we had to wait for all my baby teeth to
fall out, so we did, and after they were all gone (i'd been playing for about 4 years by now) i went back to the dentist, and he said i didn't need
'em anymore. he remarked on how it looked like my overbite had been pushed back--go figure. i told him he better perscribe playing the trumpet
instead of braces for overbites.
Trumpet:
Eterna by Getzen, Severinson Model
Mouthpiece:
Vincent Bach 3C, and my little plastic buddy for marching below 0
Flugelhorn:
Yamaha YFH 731 with a 12 1/2 C mouthpiece
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simply swingin
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| posted on 4/22/04 at 21:25 |
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Ha ha ha, thanks. I've been trying to play in the center. It's really tough. =\ But I'll see what happens.
And there I'll bow in humble adoration and there proclaim "My God how great You are!"
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PVRinaldi
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| posted on 4/22/04 at 22:46 |
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Nononono.
Just play where it feels comfortable. Playing off center is quite normal. More people play off center than in the center. Go with how your teeth
are set up, and you will have a much easier time developing.
---------
Peace,
Phil
Trumpet Player in the New York City Area
Owner; Rinaldi Entertainment, L.L.C.
Artist Representative; Van Cleave Trumpets, L.L.C.
Editor/Moderator; Trumpet Player Online.com
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shane artz
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| posted on 4/23/04 at 00:54 |
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ive always thought i played center but when i get done playing and get a ring its always off to the side. i dont sound bad so i dont see a problem
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Hayden
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| posted on 4/23/04 at 07:47 |
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nice topic title...certainly got people's attention!
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Phantom9988
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| posted on 4/23/04 at 09:48 |
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while it is true that alot of people play off center, its not necissarely good for your tone quality. there are exeptions to every rule, though---for
instance, i have a 2/3 on bottom and 1/3 on top embechoure, exactally the opposite of perfect, and its supposed to limit your abilities very severly,
but i find that i can play high, low, and fast with good tone no problem--though it makes me think--if i had a perfect embechure, how much better
would i sound?
Trumpet:
Eterna by Getzen, Severinson Model
Mouthpiece:
Vincent Bach 3C, and my little plastic buddy for marching below 0
Flugelhorn:
Yamaha YFH 731 with a 12 1/2 C mouthpiece
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PVRinaldi
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| posted on 4/23/04 at 13:09 |
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There is NO one perfect embouchure for everyone.
Playing off center is NOT an exception to the rule.
Neither is playing 2/3 bottom, and 1/3 top.
Where are you getting these silly rules.
---------
Peace,
Phil
Trumpet Player in the New York City Area
Owner; Rinaldi Entertainment, L.L.C.
Artist Representative; Van Cleave Trumpets, L.L.C.
Editor/Moderator; Trumpet Player Online.com
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dotman
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| posted on 4/23/04 at 18:11 |
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every person's lips and mouth structure is way too different to determine one "best" embechure
and it really wouldn't suprise me if MF died soon. It'd be sad, but i wouldn't be suprised.
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Phantom9988
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| posted on 4/23/04 at 18:42 |
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Phil, i get that from an Arbans book. i dont mean to be sassy, but if you think you know more than him, go ahead and take it up with the dead man
himself. besides, its proven that if your emboushure is as listed above, you'll have better tone quality and a better range. i've been steadily
improving my embouchure and i'm convinced that when its perfect, i'll be even better than now. therell be a better chance of increasing range.
Trumpet:
Eterna by Getzen, Severinson Model
Mouthpiece:
Vincent Bach 3C, and my little plastic buddy for marching below 0
Flugelhorn:
Yamaha YFH 731 with a 12 1/2 C mouthpiece
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PVRinaldi
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 00:40 |
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Well "Phantom", I hate to break it to you, but you are VERY, VERY wrong.
Remember, the Arban Book was written VERY long ago. NOT all of the concepts quite apply today. In fact, some have definetally been disproven.
NO WHERE is it PROVEN that, if your embouchure is what you consider "perfect", you will have increased range, etc.
I understand your enthusiasm for the trumpet, and learning, and books. HOWEVER, part of my job as a moderator, and ONLY other editor (along with MVC)
of TPO is to help people learn right and wrong.
It is WRONG to say there is a perfect embouchure. There is a general position you should be in based on your teeth configuration. Unfortunatlly, I
cannot see your teeth from here. If I could, I would give you a general area to place your mouthpiece, and we would go from there.
Trust me, I studied all of this with MVC.
Mark Van Cleave knows more about the physics of trumpet playing than most, if not all. And it is most likely the latter.
---------
Peace,
Phil
Trumpet Player in the New York City Area
Owner; Rinaldi Entertainment, L.L.C.
Artist Representative; Van Cleave Trumpets, L.L.C.
Editor/Moderator; Trumpet Player Online.com
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band geek
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 06:51 |
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hey
i got that same problem - i have like real wonkalated teeth but my dentist says that i dun hav to get braces if i dont want to (no i dont want to play
trumpet with braces on for 3 yaers) and i have a funny embuchoure from my crooked teeth but my teacher says thats just how i play and i shouoldnt
worry about it. and not very many people play with their mouthpiece exactly in the center of da lips...as long as you feel comfortable with it and
whatever comes out of ya horn sounds good it should be fine
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Phantom9988
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 14:01 |
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Phil: i think that i might be right, because i've had 4 seperate trumpet players (including 3 band directors, and Stan Mark, lead in Maynards band
for a while) come up to me and tell me that your trumpet should either be dead center, or a 2/3-1/3 in the opposite direction im playing. each has
said it will improve my already good tone quality, up my endurance, and heighten my already astonishing range. when three of the people i respect the
most (the one i exclude is stan mark--i dont like him) come up to me and tell me i have a problem, i tend to listen. i dunno about anyone else but i
like to take my trumpet playing seriously.
Trumpet:
Eterna by Getzen, Severinson Model
Mouthpiece:
Vincent Bach 3C, and my little plastic buddy for marching below 0
Flugelhorn:
Yamaha YFH 731 with a 12 1/2 C mouthpiece
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dotman
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 15:35 |
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it's not that we dont take our trumpet playing seriously. we just have a different approach. every person is different. and things have changed a
lot since arban's day. My director back in HS would find something in that book and read it to me as a joke because what used to be concidered
perfect is not absurd.
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Phantom9988
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 16:09 |
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while its true that some of arbans ideas are outdated (ie he said the trumpets range was like a high Eb or something above the staff), the majority of
his skill and technique builders are very good. you can't deny that the man knew alot about playing the trumpet, seeing as he was one of the first
that did so.
Trumpet:
Eterna by Getzen, Severinson Model
Mouthpiece:
Vincent Bach 3C, and my little plastic buddy for marching below 0
Flugelhorn:
Yamaha YFH 731 with a 12 1/2 C mouthpiece
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PVRinaldi
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Location: Garwood, NJ
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 16:12 |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Phantom9988
Phil: i think that i might be right, because i've had 4 seperate trumpet players (including 3 band directors, and Stan Mark, lead in Maynards band
for a while) come up to me and tell me that your trumpet should either be dead center, or a 2/3-1/3 in the opposite direction im playing. each has
said it will improve my already good tone quality, up my endurance, and heighten my already astonishing range. when three of the people i respect the
most (the one i exclude is stan mark--i dont like him) come up to me and tell me i have a problem, i tend to listen. i dunno about anyone else but i
like to take my trumpet playing seriously. |
I am very sorry to help bring this to your attention:
But they are all VERY WRONG.
It is as simple as that.
The physics of trumpet playing proves it.
---------
Peace,
Phil
Trumpet Player in the New York City Area
Owner; Rinaldi Entertainment, L.L.C.
Artist Representative; Van Cleave Trumpets, L.L.C.
Editor/Moderator; Trumpet Player Online.com
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Phantom9988
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 16:44 |
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excuse me for saying so, but the so called "physics" of trumpet playing proves nothing. either of us might be right. to tell the truth, the human
race as a whole dosn't know enough about how your lips vibrate to make the sound in brass instruments to be able to tell anything. in theory,
however, it has been decided by many trumpet players that a centered mouthpiece is the universal best embouchure. it allows for a little bit of space
either way. trumpet players in general tend to lower the mouthpiece to play higher notes, and raise it to play lower notes. thats why the centered
embouchure its considered the best course of action no matter who you are.
Trumpet:
Eterna by Getzen, Severinson Model
Mouthpiece:
Vincent Bach 3C, and my little plastic buddy for marching below 0
Flugelhorn:
Yamaha YFH 731 with a 12 1/2 C mouthpiece
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scooter01
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 16:49 |
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I suggest you re-read the Arban's instructions on mouthpiece placement and breathing. Then also read the footnotes added by Claude Gordon (who by the
way studied with Herbert L. Clarke). In the movie "Dead Poets Society", Robin Williams' character has his students tear out the Preface of their
textbooks because the author gave a ridiculous description of measuring the importance of a poem. I think you could pretty much tear those same pages
out of the Arban's book, find a good teacher, and learn to really play the heck out of your horn. One of the best trumpet players I ever met carried
his horn around in a paper bag and it was beat up Olds Ambassodor. He played on the left side of his mouth and had range that would make most of you
turn blue. I don't know what happened to him, but he was the best soloist we had in college Jazz Ensemble. QUIT BELEIVING EVERYTHING YOU READ!!!
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PVRinaldi
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 16:51 |
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Well, you are wrong.
We do know about how your lips vibrate.
I allready told you how I studied, and still study with Mark Van Cleave. He has studied the physics of this through many students of his who were
literally "rocket scientists".
I know what I speak of.
Besides, how could it possiblly make any sense that every trumpet student should have the same embouchure.
I understand your enthusiasm, but you are inccorect in your findings.
The reason I am so pationate about this, is because I am sick and tired of bad information being taught!
---------
Peace,
Phil
Trumpet Player in the New York City Area
Owner; Rinaldi Entertainment, L.L.C.
Artist Representative; Van Cleave Trumpets, L.L.C.
Editor/Moderator; Trumpet Player Online.com
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Phantom9988
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 17:32 |
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well then, post MVC's findings on lip vibration. if you read the article in TPO about lip vibration, and the rubber-water lip model you'll see that
it states they have scientists working on how lip vibration works to produce notes. maybe you should contact them and tell them that the research
time and money they've put into it is all useless because someone's allready figured it out.
Trumpet:
Eterna by Getzen, Severinson Model
Mouthpiece:
Vincent Bach 3C, and my little plastic buddy for marching below 0
Flugelhorn:
Yamaha YFH 731 with a 12 1/2 C mouthpiece
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simply swingin
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Location: Dacula, Georgia
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| posted on 4/24/04 at 18:57 |
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IT IS OK! I just listended to a recording of a trumpeter my dad (he's a drummer) played with in highschool. This trumpeter played COMPLTETELY to the
side of his mouth, and he's astonishing, amazing, outstanding. So I don't think I have any problem, I'll just keep going my way. 
And there I'll bow in humble adoration and there proclaim "My God how great You are!"
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PVRinaldi
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| posted on 4/25/04 at 00:26 |
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Phantom-
I know what the article says.
I put it there.
The article has NOTHING To do with where you put the mouthpiece.
Playing dead center only works if you have perfect teeth, gums, and lips.
Mark talks about in his book Maximizing Practice Volume II: Developing Power, Range, and Endurance about the teeth. How keeping the mouthpiece above
the pink is important, but doesn't matter how much above. It talks about how your teeth play a huge part in everything; from mouthpiece placement,
to your pivot.
I have studied this very extensivelly. I have watched it in action.
You are wrong, wrong, wrong.
Everyone is different.
Read Mark's articles on http://www.markvancleave.com and see what he says about the
Resonate Oral Cavity (ROC), and other things.
Does it make ANY sense to you that EVERYONE should have the SAME embouchure? It would be silly if you thought that.
Most GREAT players I know play to the side.
You can continue playing dead center, and it may be the correct place for you. But it is not the correct place for everyone.
And if you do force yourself to play dead center, and it is not the correct place, you are in for a lifetime of problems.
It is wrong to say everyone should play the same.
---------
Peace,
Phil
Trumpet Player in the New York City Area
Owner; Rinaldi Entertainment, L.L.C.
Artist Representative; Van Cleave Trumpets, L.L.C.
Editor/Moderator; Trumpet Player Online.com
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Phantom9988
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| posted on 4/25/04 at 11:46 |
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i read the articles on that site, and, while it is a very intelligent and in depth study of intonation, it has nothing to do with mouthpiece
placement. You speak of the "Resonate Oral Cavity," well that just tells you that the openness of your teeth need to change to reflect each note
you play, in order to produce a "shower effect."
i agree with what he says in those articles completely. he makes no contradiction to an embouchure that is better than others. i never said that
dead center is the perfect embouchure, its just that you should try to keep it in that general area. if you play too far to the left, or too far
down, it will seriously hurt your tone quality, range, and endurance. i speak from experience. there's a kid who plays with his horn in the
marching position "to the box" all of the time--he doesn't try to keep it that way, it just happens like that. he's played for 8 years, and yet
he has horrible tone quality, and the highest note he can play stands at a 2-line C.
tell me now that that isnt a result of poor mouthpiece placement.
Trumpet:
Eterna by Getzen, Severinson Model
Mouthpiece:
Vincent Bach 3C, and my little plastic buddy for marching below 0
Flugelhorn:
Yamaha YFH 731 with a 12 1/2 C mouthpiece
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PVRinaldi
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| posted on 4/25/04 at 12:30 |
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First of all, you are 15. You don't have "experience".
Second of all you finally admitted that you were wrong when you said, "I didn't say dead center". You said, "Play in the center always" in your
first post.
As long as your lips are inside the mouthpiece, I don't care where it is.
As far as your buddy in band is concerned, I can't see him. He may be doing a multitude of things wrong.
The articles on Mark's site, and in his book do talk about mouthpiece placement. I will try to post something from his book if I have time. But
when he talks about Resonant Oral Cavity he is saying that everyone is different. And that every note is different. If none of us are the same, how
can we place our mouthpieces in the same place.
Mark also doesn't make a contradiction to a embouchure that is better than another because there is NO one perfect embouchure for everyone.
Most great trumpet players play to one side or the other!
I said it once, and I'll say it again:
I appreciate your emthusiasm, but the information you received is wrong.
There is a lot of bad information about trumpet playing. Why do you think there are so many bad trumpet players.
Most I meet are horrible. And it is really not their fault, that do what the teacher tells them to do. But the teacher has no clue.
---------
Peace,
Phil
Trumpet Player in the New York City Area
Owner; Rinaldi Entertainment, L.L.C.
Artist Representative; Van Cleave Trumpets, L.L.C.
Editor/Moderator; Trumpet Player Online.com
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Jansu
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| posted on 4/25/04 at 12:32 |
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Phantom: It can simply be a result of not practicing. No matter how long you've played, if you dont practice, and do so
intelligently, you wont get anywhere. The poor 'tone quality' could also have to do with him trying to be cool and forcing out the highest notes he
can get. Bad habits...
You have a tendency of changing your opinion throughout every longterm thread. Seems like you start somewhere, and change your opinion as the
conversation progresses. When someone points out that you are wrong, you try to twist what you have said before. It comes off as immature, like you
dont really think about what you're saying. You have to have an opinion about everything, and you have a hard time accepting that you are wrong. I
dont know about the others, but I tend to disregard your comments because while you do have an opinion, you seem to be pulling them out of nowhere.
I'm not trying to offend you, maybe trying to point out to you what you probably dont realise about yourself. I wish someone had told me these things
when I was a little obnoxious brat with too much to say, and a bloated ego.
Yamaha 6310ZS, 14B4-GP
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